Glad to see you not only drank the water, but the entire lake as well; by the way, the figure is 250k...

@JRH....I don't disagree with the individual exercising personal responsibility and that has been the American ideal. I hold no malice toward the "haves" and their ability to live their lives without financial limitations. However, working for many years in marketing management, I know how easily people can be manipulated into doing things, that in the long run is not in their best interest. Can we protect people from their own stupidity and vulnerability, of course not. However, we don't have to take direct advantage of such vulnerability. Who would have ever thought that the constant marketing messages through television would create generations of indiscriminate consumption; the marketing profession knew pretty early on and took full advantage of such. You like toys that are vintage and pretty much made in America, you represent the exception and not the rule. One important marketing message had been the introduction of the concept of product lifetimes. This is precisely why the American auto industry got caught with their pants down and left the door open for foreign manufacturers. The consumer learned the hard way that they were being manipulated into buying inferior products, killing domestic auto production. The real issue is that the American consumer doesn't trust U.S. Companies and those that control those companies. Our business community has the reputation, well earned by the way, as exploitative, short sighted and focused only on profit for profit's sake.

@Lyle -

There you ago again with blaming the drug dealers - only this time the drug dealer is Madison Avenue and AMC's Mad Men (Don Draper and company).

Detroit's only poor decade was the '70's. And the product coming from Japan and Europe at that time wasn't much better in terms of quality and longevity in all honestly, was it? But for some reason, it was enough to turn the masses against Detroit. I recall that in 5th grade of public school, 1989, my teacher actually 'taught' the class that foreign cars were better than American made cars - that's absurd! I was the only kid in the class that refused to drink the Kool-Aid and argued extensively with the teacher about it. In retrospect, I should have told my parents and taken the complaint to the school board!

The public schools here were indoctrinating children against the American industrial worker. In Asian cultures, the schools teach their children domestic production patriotism in their consumerism. And we do the exact opposite - it's incredible really! I'm sorry, but that's messed up!

You hear all the statistics claiming that the product coming out of Detroit was so comparatively bad, but the real world experiences tell a different tale, as evidenced on any discussion board pertaining to the subject. Here's just one example:

http://www.businessweek.com/debateroom/archives/2009/02/americans_shoul.html

Bottom line is that Americans are stupid and greedy, and now they feel entitled to boot!

@Swithin -

And you point the finger at and blame Republicans and the vulture capitalists for the middle class's decline instead of looking in the mirror - you're obviously in denial!

No one put a gun to anyone's head and forced people en mass to buy cheap products made with exploited labor, did they? The American consumer did that of their own free will. The business world is simply reacting to the demands of the market. It's what the middle class has chosen for themselves by exercise of their own free will. Why do you liberals insist that the government must constantly step in to protect people from their own stupidity?

Let me set you straight Jimmy. The decline in average pay and increase in other costs have caused the middle class to turn to the low price retailers to buy stuff made in China.

You really hate people don't you?

@Schmitzy -

That's funny, as I see it like this - middle class and low income people wanted more luxuries in life, feeling entitled to them, so they started buying cheaper goods made with exploited labor, despite having the choice to support their own. But if they supported their own, that would mean that they would have to do with less luxuries, and these people couldn’t tolerate making such a sacrifice. It was the greed of these people wanting more luxuries that slowly started killing off our domestic industrial base.

Care to tell us what kind of car you own Schmitzy? I'm guessing that it wasn't manufactured in this country by unionized laborers, was it?

Obama's plan will not lead to improving the lives of anybody. Obama has nothing to offer the middle class that what "Fundamental Transformation" is a socialist nightmare leading to severe collapse and a lower standard of living for all. In fact it is likely by 2016 or 2020 the Democratic party will openly abandon anyone who pays taxes, including most of the middle class. Accusing the GOP of class warfare is comical though.

@Keith Schmitz...I have to agree with JRH that we are guilty of driving ourselves off the economic cliff with our materialism and consumption habits. The real decline began nearly four decades ago with out of control inflation followed by "stagflation". To continue growing the economy business has been guilty of finding ways of producing goods ever cheaper to respond to the declining purchasing power of the population. The decline of the middle class has been steady and now is accelerating during the "Great Recession". People fed their consumption addiction through taking advantage of ever increasing credit. Because the economy figuratively fell completely off the cliff, people have been forced to turn to their last option, the federal government.

In my opinion, if we follow the proposed policies of the political right, then our slide will do nothing but accelerate and we won't reach equilibrium until the global economy has reached parity and we have reached a global mean living standard. Our living standard has been built on myth and is nothing but a house of cards. I apologize for my nihilistic view, but all of indicators are focused in this direction.

@Keith,

Yeah, no one ever bought things based upon price until Republicans took over. You make a lot of scents (peeyou)!

@Lyle -

You know my stance on trade issues. And unlike most people, Hoffa actually walks the talk when it comes to patriotic consumerism!

@JRH...Whether it's foreign or domestic, consumerism for consumerism's sake is destructive in the long term. The inability to save and delay gratification is a weakness that too many people suffer from. Until people's values get more in line with reality, then we will continue our decline.

@Lyle -

Wasn't it responsible consumerism that led to the very best of days for our nation?

@JRH...Responsible consumerism is based on need and not want. A concentration on materialism is what has created many of our current problems. Why do people need the "McMansion" or a basic car at $35K+. We don't do our kids any favors by setting false expectations. Our kids, grand kids and great grand kids will be the first generation since WW II that will experience a declining standard of living. I expect to see that families will begin a process of housing mufti-generational members all in one house. Economics will force the change. It will take all available working members to work, producing income just to maintain an adequate standard of living. Recent college graduates are an example of this process beginning in earnest. The future doesn't look all that bright and hopeful. America is in transition and we might as well accept it as a reality.

@Lyle -

Of course living outside one's means is irresponsible. But to indulge in luxuries if you have the means, and a sound cushion of liquidity as a backup in case something unexpected were to arise, is most certainly not irresponsible - it's the American way and dream, isn't it?

Envy, desire, and a false sense of entitlement is what leads people to live beyond their means and get themselves into trouble - and that is irresponsible and it needs to stop. But you can't honestly blame the haves for tempting others into being irresponsible - that's such a ludicrous argument! Instead, the proper solution is personal responsibility and sound individual fiscal policy.

I'm by no means a wealthy person. But I take proper care of what I have and spend a dollar wisely, which has allowed me to build up a cushion of liquidity and take part in having some toys. Just because I'm not living paycheck to paycheck and have a few toys, Bren and other liberals have called me affluent - PLEASE!

I know plenty of people that make far more than I do that live like slobs and spend money like a fish out of water, and thus are in fact living paycheck to paycheck, and yet many liberals would have compassion for such people! Like Michael Moore's presented sob stories in his film Capitalism: A Love Story. Those people are living that way clearly by choice!

But as opposed to holding them personally accountable for their own stupidity, you'd rather punish the righteous like myself and drag me down so as to eliminate their jealousy and envy, because we'd all be more equal that way. That's not the vision of America that I was raised on - sorry Lyle!

The lazy and unwise should have less than the prudent, hard-working, and wise - otherwise, where's the incentive to be prudent, hard-working, and wise?

Funny how that works, isn't it?

Jeff Christensen - you really can't blame him, as he has no argument, except, that is, to call people socialist and more of the blame the victim philosophy... there is absolutely no correlation or causation between high effective tax rates or low effective tax rates being good for economic prosperity. If there were, I'd be making the argument that Clinton gave us the highest tax rate in history, created 23 Million jobs in 8 years, while GWB, with his "Bush Tax Cuts" created only 3.3 Million jobs and gave us the Great Depression II. You really have to look at the entire system in the context of the economic period that they happened in.

@Bren -

Cant' you ever stay focused on a singular topic of discussion instead of constantly shifting the subject?

This board is about taxes. So, what's your proposed federal tax plan - let's see it. Hoffa offered up his to the scrutiny of the Patch community. So, what does a fair federal tax code look like in Bren's world?

Mr. Hoffa, my post was about taxes--tax shelters, tax breaks, Social Security tax, taxpayers paying for escalated health care costs. Perhaps your attention wandered?

; )

Big Oil subsidies and the Bush tax cuts should end as no longer needed and abused, respectively, and a number of corporate loopholes should be revised (not a tax attorney but logically titans of industry could pay something. If these organizations receive tax breaks because they are "job creators" the jobs they create should be in the U.S., and if they aren't, reduce or eliminate their tax breaks accordingly!). Even Mitt Romney's tax rate I can live with since the cash amount he's paying is proportionately higher than say, mine. The issue in Mitt's case (and others) of course is that he has not been paying taxes on his full income as the rest of us do. I suggest that this is as much an issue of morality as legal standing.

Paying taxes is my responsibility as a U.S. citizen and one who contributes to society. I view tax evasion as unpatriotic and parasitic. I laud the IRS for the work it does (remember it was the T-Men, not the G-Men who brought down Al Capone!).

@Bren -

In essence, everything government does comes down to taxes, because it is how the government funds its operations. So, while you could technically shift the subject into anything you wanted and be justified in doing so on semantics, I believe that the point of the blog was more or less focused on tax rates.

So again, I ask - what does Bren's ideal federal tax code look like, including the rates of taxation that Bren believes would represent fairness in the code for all Americans?

I'm not trying to catch you or slam you on anything - I'm genuinely interested to hear your perspective and opinion on the issue.

But if you continue to persist in going after Romney for alleged hypocrisy, then I'll have to continue to bring up how you own and drive a car that was manufactured in a right-to-work-for-less state, despite your assertions as being against such a policy ;-)

After all, fair is fair, right?

Mr. Hoffa, I'm not sure what you mean by the essence of government being about taxes. We are the government. It's about working together to make our country the greatest nation on earth. Paying some taxes garners me many benefits-primarily safety and security. Regulations (though weakened) protect us from tainted foods from places like China (you should read some U.S. Customs turnback reports sometime, but not before lunch), protect us from foreign threats, pandemics, etc. Government provides laws, roads, interest bearing retirement accounts, senior medical insurance, etc. That's what government means to me.

As for my specific tax code, every case is different and that's why I prefer our existing tax code (with some corrections) to cookie cutter %s. I think my tax rate is fair, I have no complaints.

I've answered your question twice now. And I'm not quite sure how you can compare my car to multiple offshore accounts. Perhaps it was assembled in a Right to Work for Less state, but Toyota at least infuses cash into our economy. Explain how offshore accounts work for America, please?

@Bren -

So, you prefer a tax code: so huge and complicated that the average person can't make heads or tales of it; is full of loopholes; and effectively picks winners and losers? Ok, that clears up a lot - thanks for answering honestly!

Seeing as how you keep on bringing it up, I must ask how a Welsh vacation contributes to the US tourism industry?

Yes, also Fox, CNN, WSJ, NYT, BG, MJS, the Observer & Guardian (U.K.). If an online publication links to another publication I'll read that too. I believe it's important to get conservative, moderate, liberal, and international perspectives. How about you, Ima?

Yo is you stoned Poulos? gots you ever worked uh day in da private sector? da da system be uh parasite dat holds us all back, you be clueless once ag'in an don't make me pull mah gat!

@Nick Goebbels -

'The American Plan,' as you call it, forces everyone, under threat of tax, to participate in a broken and flawed capitalist system that's premised upon socialist concepts - you consider such forced servitude to be an American value/principle? That's pretty sick if you ask me!

The term 'insurance,' is popularly defined as a form of risk management primarily used to hedge against the risk of a contingent, uncertain loss. U&C health care is neither contingent or uncertain, so why should insurance even be involved in such events? Only catastrophic coverage makes sense to insurance against. Otherwise, everyone should pay their own way directly as they utilize health care services - as was originally intended all along. I know that personal responsibility is a difficult concept for you to grasp, but if you study it enough, I'm sure you'll start to get it eventual!

"For the Nation to borrow from itself to invest in itself is indeed wise."

So, essentially what you're saying that it's wise for our government to devalue the currency and create inflation, right? Don't both of those things have the effect of making everyone poorer, hitting the poorest of our society the hardest? That's an interesting strategy, but I'm not convinced that I'd like to see it played out on any grander of a scale than we've already gotten ourselves into, thank you very much!

"Re- craft the Language"

No matter how hard you try, you'll never be able to spin crap into gold!

"Such a philosophy will destroy the American we love and need for all."

Yep, there's the old gloom and doom scare tactics - you're definitely not disappointing us Nick! That NetRoots training seminar that you took was definitely worth the $15 investment!

Did someone put some extra sugar into your Kool-Aid today?

Come on Lyle, give him a little credit - at least this time he disclosed that the ideas in his blog came from Valerie Jarrett and Mark Belling.

History proves otherwise. The Clinton era was the most robust economy in our history.

Yeah, we are really impressed by citations from the fascist American Enterprise Institute. But do play again.

Like the big corporations & rich fat cats that pay little to no taxes now?

You bet it is Todd. Ignoramuses like you whine about what are enough taxes. The answer, if you can comprehend it, is enough to run the country and it is obvious our country is running into the ground.

Do you know how to cipher Todd? First, the figure is unbelievable and probably is another FOX lie. Second, have you noticed that they are still left with plenty of money, enough money to buy our elections.

So sick and tired of self-loathing people like you who cry for the rich. This county is benefiting nothing from them.

Keith, I'm not crying for the rich. My point is that the people you define as rich pay the lions share of taxes in this country, while a large portion of the population do not pay any taxes. I think we need to lift the bottom up and make them viable taxpayers (more people working), than to continually trying to take more away from the people who are already paying the taxes. Even your rich liberals are denouncing their citizenship and taking their cash to other countries to avoid taxation.

Wilson: You're a couple pounds low on air pressure, and it has affected your thinking. Despite your long winded diatribe, all of the manufacturing jobs are in China.....that was my point.
Nothing in my post had anything to do with the 'tanned' President. Perhaps your love for dark skin is an indication of YOUR fixation with sodomy.

Craig - You sure went directly to , "your point", in your initial post. Anyway, you are wrong. "all of the maufacturing jobs are in China" is just stupid! Yes, manufacturing in America has declined, but that is because we elected to ship these positions overseas and engage in massive outsourcing. Manufacturing, in reality, is starting, once again, to grow in America.

Admittedly, this has nothing to do with BJs and Sodomy, but, neither does "your point"...

I think I made my point just fine. If you didn't need a tire pump to fill all the extra space in your head, maybe you would have thought so too.